Jisho

×
Fd6b9edc68ea99816bca83d61433b98e
5 Replies ・ Started by Cuddlecreeper8 at 2024-07-13 17:05:48 UTC ・ Last reply by Fredora at 2024-07-17 00:54:40 UTC
This is a discussion about 神様

Christian Focus

This entry has a heavy Christian/Monotheist focus.
-sama is just adding an honorific to the word kami, in Shintō kami-sama are not gods and referring to them as such only spreads misconceptions.

The primary definition of this word should be Kami as that is what its primary meaning is.
Christians/Monotheists aren't the majority in Japan so why should a secondary meaning be the primary meaning in the dictionary?

9cf42f0d6d606074d071d46f6ca7611a
Lyza at 2024-07-14 02:05:07 UTC

The Christian thing kinda make sense in this context. In Japan, if you say "Kami-sama" out of the blue, unprompted, i.e. not in a shrine/temple or any specific context, it gonna sounds like you're talking about christian god. Those pesky people who go door-to-door preaching, just need to say Kami-sama and people would understand that they are preaching christianity without needing to specify. Not sure if the definition text is a bit narrow or lack some context, but it's not wrong.

Linguistically, Sama is just an honorific but it can make the noun more "specific", like adding "the" in English (e.g. The King, instead of A king, or Kings). An honorific may change the meaning of the word too.

The "kami" meaning already mentioned in the entry for "神" alone so I think it's fine.

6d4b0d7986f5ee4c159a7e5fef92e241
flayxis at 2024-07-15 11:44:23 UTC

You meant to say that your understanding of the English word „god“ has a Christian bias I guess? I have had many conversations in English using the word „god“ / „gods“ without it referring to the Christian god or a monotheistic god at all. The word itself is very general and I think your take on it says more about you and your cultural background than about the dictionary (not saying there is anything wrong with that, everybody interprets communication in the context of their past experiences).

And lastly.. even if you speak to Japanese, if you just want to speak about what you call Japanese kami out of the blue, it‘s best to specify that you‘re speaking about shinto belief. So to me the translation actually fits pretty well in most regards.

Fd6b9edc68ea99816bca83d61433b98e
Cuddlecreeper8 at 2024-07-16 10:14:01 UTC

Respectfully, the concepts of gods (even in polytheistic pagan religions) are completely different from Shintō kami-sama, which is why I think separate definitions are needed on the entry.

There's an English Encyclopedia of Shintō by Kokugakuin (one of the major places that train Shintō priests/priestesses)
They have a whole page explaining the concept, but the 3rd paragraph defines it more simply:
https://d-museum.kokugakuin.ac.jp/eos/detail/?id=9958

On the topic of 様 being a specifier, I don't think this is one of those examples.
If you go on Twitter and search "神道 神さま" and you'll find a mix of people speaking of a specific kami-sama and some talking about many.

My main concern is spreading misinformation as Shintō tends to be misrepresented in western resources

6ee23c5fa55b37168c3f360dded0acaa
Leebo at 2024-07-16 13:43:22 UTC

If you want to submit a change to any entry, you can click the link on the left of the entry and navigate to where that can be done. It's not handled here, since Jisho just uses the data of other resources.

96d6b7bdff6648618dad1529e7475780
Fredora at 2024-07-17 00:54:40 UTC

yeah, the author definitely has a christian bias
the word 'god' only has a monotheistic focus if you capitalize it
the entry however lists it as "1. God; god", so everything is bueno

to reply.